DUST Search - Costs of Immortality

Heinz Doofenshertz wrote:

You speak of Immortality, yet I doubt you understand it in it's fullest. You speak of the first Empyreans, suggesting that the void changes them, that they become empty and cold like the vast emptiness of space they traverse. Suggesting they do not see the destruction they cause. You are wrong. They may be undying, but they fear death. The universe that spawned them has turned to hate them. The power that polices them sees them as a threat. They are hunted by their own for the slightest thing.

We are Empyrean also, but we know Death, we fear it not, we accept it. We are Death, We are what they feared the Empyreans would become

Have you seen the eyes in the darkness, the dark whispers in the back of your mind. Have you come to know you are the Death they all fear. They fear us not because of the power we have, or our numbers, nor even what we could do if the lesh slipped and we were given our full freedom. No they fear us because we are everything that they are not.

We are Death Given form, No Mortal can stand before us, No Empyrean can stand against us without facing that which they fear the most. The Unending Death of all things.

We are what Concord was meant to prevent, We exist in Defiance of their mandate.

"To Protect the right of civilizations to grow and prosper;
To preserve the surviving sovereignties of the Dark Ages;
To serve justice to those immortals who abuse the privildge of everlasting life;
To safeguard the mortals of the worlds from dangers which originate in space;
To prevent empyrean technology from causing the destruction of humanity."

We are their failure, We are their future, We are their Doom.

Pick sides where you will, Offer loyalty to those you think you trust, Kill those you think deserve death's warm embrace, but know this. While Mankind was born from dust and is destined to return to it. You are no longer counted among them.

You are destined to die a trillion deaths, and always arise again.

Welcome to Children to the ranks of the Empyrean, you are a Bunny. Bring their fears, Bring their end.

Denak Kalamari wrote:

Most of us usually have some kind of military background, or at least had extensive training while participating in the clone soldier program. A part of that "immortality training" is dealing with the constant loss, pain and suffering we have to endure, and sometimes gone through mental conditioning to just, not care. In a way, a part of us dies when we go through that training, like with capsuleers who experience the Black. Death is nothing but a financial inconvenience, we become disconnected from the outside world, we simply, stop caring. ISK is all that matters.

Some of us have gone over that, found an ideal to hold on to to keep ourselves from going 514 entirely. But even then, me, you, all of us are a little dead from the inside, a hole in our hearts where nothing but darkness resides.


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Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 246	Posted - 2013.09.09 06:31:00 - [1] - Quote Immortality has its price, it seems. For the capsuleers, the price is a link to an uncaring and empty nothingness: the Black. Their madness follows from this: they become more like it-- uncaring, empty, inimical to life, deadly not because they desire death and destruction, but because they do not mind and scarcely notice it. For a long time, I have feared that the same end awaited us. I have watched and waited, observing the forms and causes of our own madness. And, for the first time, I have not been able to see the common condition reliably reflected in myself. It seems, tentatively, that we are not subject to the same forces. We are deadly, yes, we are often unstable, yes, but it is in different ways and for different reasons. The capsuleers touch the void, and are touched in turn. We, on the other hand, are buffeted, and buffeted further, by forces more intense, and more visceral. We die, again and again. We sometimes die painlessly, sometimes in pain, sometimes in the screaming agony of dissolving organs. We live in an endless series of relatively featureless, interchangeable clones. Our bodies' average individual longevity is shorter than that of an adult fruit fly. More than this, we are modified, heavily. The implant that defines us replaces the brainstem, thalamus, and hippocampus. Our motor, tactile-sensory, pain, sleep, alertness, spatial navigation, and long-term memory formation are all being run by a cybernetic rig whose function we do not ourselves even properly understand. Even if this is working properly (and it seems abundantly clear that in at least the first generation it did not), how close to our "original" hardware is the result? If the capsuleers touch the void, then our lot is an unceasing storm. A fair few of us are destroyed, their psyches battered to pieces. They "go 514" (a suitable enough term for a crazed clone soldier, even without the first generation's lingering shadow), or are forced to withdraw into a civilian life they are no longer suited to. The rest hold on, in one way or another. We have different approaches to surviving this. Some resort to humor, others to stoicism. Still others seem to reach for conviction, dedication to a cause. A very few willingly let go, blowing on the wind, seeking to ride the tempest, to become the wind instead of fighting it. All of these seem likely, with time, to be easier said than done. Regardless, it seems likely that the average clone soldier's career will be still shorter than that of the average capsuleer. "Immortal" we may be, in the sense that we can die a thousand almost-trivial deaths, but it remains to be seen whether anyone sane will remain long enough to take advantage of our artificial longevity.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 253	Posted - 2013.09.10 05:24:00 - [2] - Quote 21yrOld Knight wrote: We can be immortal with out going 514. When the first gen of mercs came out they lost all of their memories of the past why can't that happen again. who is to say it hasn't happened us yet. All of us we are tools we know that. Expensive yes, loyal not always but tools. Just like tools we can be broken and fixed. We are more of a slave then one in the amarr empire. Yes we may fight for reason such as for state or honor but in the end those are just excuses made for mercs to fight the rich man's war. So i guess i can agree about there is a cost for immortality but not exactly for the same reasons. Hm. Well ... I am reasonably certain I have not been overwritten, if only because there are things here that I have not hidden well, but which I am fairly sure would not have been included in a "reset." There do seem to be a fair few amnesiac soldiers, of course, many of them seemingly dark backgrounds. Perhaps we could be repaired, at the cost of our prior identities. ... Would I mind? I suppose I would. On being a tool: this state seems to trouble you, but it is not unique to us. It is the most ordinary thing, in truth. It is what being part of a civilization is all about, really: making yourself useful, and using others to fulfill your own needs. To be a civilized person is to be a tool, and to use others as tools. It is more than necessary; it is usual. I see nothing especially dark in this, and much good comes of it. Galm Fae wrote: When not properly calibrated our implants can do a number on us. The implants I started out with were prone to fits where they would randomly trigger rapid onset neural decay and dementia. Everyone else in my unit could see what was happening but me. I was losing my mind and no one said a damn word. Even after that experience I still encounter a few issues. It is almost like bits of me got... I don't know, corrupted. Out of no where I will become obsessed, though the object of my obsession always alludes me. I don't know if it is me trying to remember something important or if there is just a glitch in my memory. It eats away at you day after day after day until I eventually jump into another clone and the feeling is gone. All I can try to do is ride out the storm and hold back the tide of psychosis. Unsettling details, Fae-haan. Perhaps things will settle out in time. In the meantime, it may be advisable to keep a journal, or otherwise track your state of mind. It should not be too surprising that the complete replacement of certain portions of the brain with cybernetics should take a few sessions of debugging, of course, as cringe-worthy as the very concept may be. Quote: I'm not familiar with the Black though, and it makes me worried. A good friend of mine became a capsuleer. He was probably the most brilliant and kind person I had ever me. That said, I hate to think what he could be capable of without that compassion. Erosion by what I term the Black is commonly known as "capsuleer dementia." It's a progressive condition that corrodes the capsuleer's sense of empathy towards baseline humans. It's present at a high level in most experienced combat pilots, and it's pretty nearly ubiquitous within the community. Partly, I think it's a trick of perspective. A capsuleer neural shunt replaces normal nerve impulses with sensations that track ship systems, essentially taking on the ship as a surrogate body. Experienced capsuleers most often reflexively perceive themselves as ships, which also explains why so many of them either hold us in contempt or seem uncertain how to react to us: we function on a smaller scale than most of them are accustomed to thinking, yet we are cousins of a kind. A hallmark of the condition is refusal to regard baseliners as a threat, and to imagine war as something that only meaningfully happens in space, between ships. Capsuleers will commonly crack occupied habitats in hopes of finding even a few valuables within. If your friend would hesitate to dig up an anthill on the suspicion that it contained an antique coin, you may not have very much to worry about. Otherwise ... it is not a path I would recommend to anyone who desired to remain a functioning part of the human race. Amusingly, that, itself, is a problem we don't seem to have. We seem to be, at base, merely battered veterans who quickly gather more mileage than most. The same cannot be said of someone who casually thinks asteroid colonies to death.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 292	Posted - 2013.09.28 05:05:00 - [3] - Quote DeadlyAztec11: Soldier, get your blasted head checked. And I mean by a technician, not a shrink. Most of us can't be "fixed" just by getting an upgrade; you likely can, if you are what you claim to be-- and you should. The first generation would cast a long enough shadow if it were properly extinct; having even a few of you still around is a substantial problem.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 305	Posted - 2013.10.09 05:38:00 - [4] - Quote Void Echo wrote: the immortal soldier is nothing more than a war puppet for the people in charge of this cluster **** True, but this seems a somewhat, forgive me, pointless point, soldier. Just about everyone uses just about everyone else. That's getting sort of close to the definition of "civilization." Or maybe "society".... Perhaps what is troublesome about this is that we are war dogs, suffering at the behest of those who do not suffer as we do. Many of us will find it difficult ever to be anything else. In this sense, we are sacrificed to the happiness of others. Some of us seem to find that idea troubling, but it seems as though those who are troubled are those who were expecting something different: power, perhaps, and prestige, an immortal life of wealth and honor instead of a probably-limited existence of misery, mistrust, and ebbing sanity. Those of us who entered this life expecting to suffer on others' behalf seem to be doing rather well. Perhaps this is an area where a philosophy of individualism causes trouble?
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 315	Posted - 2013.10.11 16:59:00 - [5] - Quote Well spoken, Templar Kantor. You seem, however, to slightly misunderstand the thrust of these remarks. The question is perhaps less whether our situation is "bad" than whether it is stable. We are offered extensive luxuries, yes; we can provide well for our loved ones, yes; we are wealthy by nature, if not quite so much so, yet, as the capsuleers. Is that the end of it? We prosper, now, we serve a purpose, now, and so we should be thankful for what we have? Perhaps we should, and my purpose is not to bemoan my sorry fate, but rather to consider what else seems to be true of us. Whether we can sip wine along the journey is, I must admit, a little less important to me than where the journey is leading. If Mr. Doofenshertz, above, is an example of where we are headed, so confident in our invincibility that we forget that civilization is a necessity for our continued existence (can you, personally, build a CRU from scratch? I can't), then it is best we be aware of that possible end. If he is simply someone who has slipped into a pitfall, then it would be prudent of us to watch where we step.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 315	Posted - 2013.10.11 17:25:00 - [6] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: Have I fallen? Are we lost? There is only one possible end when you make those who are destined to Die, never able to. Endless War, Endless Death. The Cost of Immortality Is Death. Pure, Simple, and without End. Spirits protect us from apocalyptic poetry. We're still able to die, soldier. Just ask the vast majority of the first generation. If we run out of techs, bioengineers, miners, and all the rest of the support staff of our industry (and we are an industrial product), we'll get to fnd out what it's like. And that's assuming that CONCORD hasn't done the smart thing and installed a killswitch that isn't shaped like an assault rifle.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 315	Posted - 2013.10.11 17:33:00 - [7] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: CONCORD Had no hand in our creation, They tried to prevent it. Every Breath you take is in violation of their laws. If they had the ability to end us, they would have used it long ago. CONCORD, our sponsoring empires, the Jove, the Amarrian god's great aunt.... With or without CONCORD approval, we were created by civilized forces, soldier. Those same forces may or may not be able to easily destroy us, but they can surely end us. They need only cease to exist, and we will do likewise shortly thereafter.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 319	Posted - 2013.10.11 18:23:00 - [8] - Quote Denak Kalamari wrote: While the poetry might have been unnecessary, I don't think he is necessarily talking about actual, physical death. A death could be spiritual or psychological, related to that cost we pay when we become immortal. I might have agreed with you if that had been his first post, but, sadly, that was his second. Here's his first. Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: You speak of Immortality, yet I doubt you understand it in it's fullest. You speak of the first Empyreans, suggesting that the void changes them, that they become empty and cold like the vast emptiness of space they traverse. Suggesting they do not see the destruction they cause. You are wrong. They may be undying, but they fear death. The universe that spawned them has turned to hate them. The power that polices them sees them as a threat. They are hunted by their own for the slightest thing. We are Empyrean also, but we know Death, we fear it not, we accept it. We are Death, We are what they feared the Empyreans would become Have you seen the eyes in the darkness, the dark whispers in the back of your mind. Have you come to know you are the Death they all fear. They fear us not because of the power we have, or our numbers, nor even what we could do if the lesh slipped and we were given our full freedom. No they fear us because we are everything that they are not. We are Death Given form, No Mortal can stand before us, No Empyrean can stand against us without facing that which they fear the most. The Unending Death of all things. We are what Concord was meant to prevent, We exist in Defiance of their mandate. "To Protect the right of civilizations to grow and prosper; To preserve the surviving sovereignties of the Dark Ages; To serve justice to those immortals who abuse the privildge of everlasting life; To safeguard the mortals of the worlds from dangers which originate in space; To prevent empyrean technology from causing the destruction of humanity." We are their failure, We are their future, We are their Doom. Pick sides where you will, Offer loyalty to those you think you trust, Kill those you think deserve death's warm embrace, but know this. While Mankind was born from dust and is destined to return to it. You are no longer counted among them. You are destined to die a trillion deaths, and always arise again. Welcome to Children to the ranks of the Empyrean, you are a Bunny. Bring their fears, Bring their end. Our apocalyptic colleague may be suffering from spiritual harm, but the role he seems to see for us is as bringers of a very physical sort of destruction. Denak Kalamari wrote: Most of us usually have some kind of military background, or at least had extensive training while participating in the clone soldier program. A part of that "immortality training" is dealing with the constant loss, pain and suffering we have to endure, and sometimes gone through mental conditioning to just, not care. In a way, a part of us dies when we go through that training, like with capsuleers who experience the Black. Death is nothing but a financial inconvenience, we become disconnected from the outside world, we simply, stop caring. ISK is all that matters. Some of us have gone over that, found an ideal to hold on to to keep ourselves from going 514 entirely. But even then, me, you, all of us are a little dead from the inside, a hole in our hearts where nothing but darkness resides. Perhaps that is so. It is not clear to me, however, that the experience is the same for us as it is for the capsuleers. The capsuleers seem to acquire the hole you describe. We might acquire something similar by some means, but it seems as though we more often get battered until we become ... numb, I suppose.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 319	Posted - 2013.10.11 18:52:00 - [9] - Quote Denak Kalamari wrote: We might not experience it the same way a capsuleer would, but we experience the same coldness, numbness nevertheless. Do we? I hope we do not. My own pit of nothing is quite broad enough without further digging. A primary trait of capuleerdom is one we lack: perception on a macrocosmic scale, a ship the size of an entire town as a single body that is nevertheless an infinitesimal speck lost in halls of emptiness. We suffer, as human bodies suffer. We die, as human bodies die. The capsuleers are detached from the human condition. We, on the other hand, are violently subject to it, again, and again, and again. If we as a whole come to the same murderous apathy as the capsuleers, it will be a strange and a sad thing.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 319	Posted - 2013.10.11 20:41:00 - [10] - Quote Denak Kalamari wrote: I would certainly hope so too. But then there's this. This might not exactly the Black or numbness we are talking about, but it certainly isn't healthy either. Oh, I certainly agree. But then, humanity's produced all sorts of monsters. Also, and perhaps more importantly, Void Echo's outlook, as expressed there, does not presently seem to be echoed widely among our class. Even Void Echo himself has lately sounded less proactively (an)nihilistic. The influence of the Black among capsuleers is more than an epidemic; it's nearly ubiquitous. We do seem to be under strain, as a whole, but the symptoms are not quite so ... specific, or at least, specifically cold. His remarks there did give me a chill, but there is comfort in their relative rarity.

Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 320	Posted - 2013.10.14 14:29:00 - [11] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: Pod pilots begin their life as pampered, become educated, and then are made immortal. They were brought up and trained to understand their role in the universe. Even the earliest were pampered. and those that ended up in the Grave were taken care of. We are plucked from the mortals, be they soldiers, prisoners, outcasts, drifters, we die to become undieing. Yet our role is not to rule but to die. Our destiny is not the stars but the grave. They made us to be pawns, they killed us to fight their wars. Gods and spirits ... you'd think you'd started life as a kameira. The Caldari State is a meritocracy, soldier, as you should well know; we serve at the level our ability dictates. Our own position is not without privilege-- far from it. We have wealth and independence substantially beyond what any ordinary soldier could expect. We can serve what causes we choose, without fear of treason charges. Your resentment appears misplaced. Quote: But We are stronger than they thought, Our destiny is not what they made for us, but what we make for ourselves. Would that not suggest some options other than the Death you're talking about? Quote: We kill, We die. We are Immortal, We Are Empyreans, Children of the stars, and the Ruin of their empires. Our begining is death, our life is death, Our Fate is Death. Denial of your Fate doesn't change it. The Price of Immortaility will always be Death. Including our own, should we undercut the technological platform that sustains us. A dark age would not bring more of our kind into being. Ignorance and scarcity would not be kind to us, to our vessels. Even the capsuleers are less dependent on civilization than we are: after all, they can build much of what they use, themselves (though the Jovian capsule itself is a glaring exception). We are dependent on existing resources and highly-sophisticated nanofacture. We'd make lousy barbarians, functioning like a disease: killing our host, then dying. If we get to pick our fate, I think I'd prefer to select another.